English Grammar

subjonctif

green lemon

User since 2011
Posts: 84

11 Aug. 2012

I going to dare ask for a grammar question: In the sentence "before Bruno makes his speech, could I make an announcement? Why not to use the subjonctif present tense in the
first proposition? which would do:"before Bruno make his speech"
(avant que Bruno ne fasse son discours)?
If someone can help me?

9 comments

Fugendichter
User since 2008
Posts: 588
26 Aug. 2012

I think that the subjonctif en français dépent de la préposition précédente "avant que (ne)". In English they have probably no grammar rules for subjonctif after prepositions.
I think that the subjonctif en français dépent de la préposition précédente "avant que (ne)". In English they have probably no grammar rules for subjonctif after prepositions.
AhQ ['a: kiu]
User since 2006
Posts: 2715
27 Aug. 2012

To my mind, buddies, the verb in the relative clause has to be in the same tense as the one in the main clause.

So,
* as 'before' means "in advance of the time when":
Before he makes his speech, I have to make an announcement. (politely: could I make)
He thinks before he acts. (or: before acting.)

* as 'before' means 'rather than':
I will make an announcement before I will go crazy.
I will die before I will betray my country. (excerpt of a grammar)

Mind you! 'Before' in the sentences at stake are cunjunctions, not propositions.
He coughs before he speaks. (cunjunction. Fr. 'avant que' or 'avant de')
He coughs before the speech. (preposition. Fr. 'avant')

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/before#ixzz24lEffbR6

Carefully yours.
To my mind, buddies, the verb in the relative clause has to be in the same tense as the one in the main clause. So, * as 'before' means "in advance of the time when": Before he makes his speech, I have to make an announcement. (politely: could I make) He thinks before he acts. (or: before acting.) * as 'before' means 'rather than': I will make an announcement before I will go crazy. I will die before I will betray my country. (excerpt of a grammar) Mind you! 'Before' in the sentences at stake are cunjunctions, not propositions. He coughs before he speaks. (cunjunction. Fr. 'avant que' or 'avant de') He coughs before the speech. (preposition. Fr. 'avant') Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/before#ixzz24lEffbR6 Carefully yours.
green lemon
User since 2011
Posts: 84
28 Aug. 2012

Thanks to both of you,
My confusion comes from a website where I read "le subjonctif anglais se confond pratiquement avec l'indicatif, seule la suppression du "s" à la 3ème pers. du singulier diffère".
Ex:God save the Queen(King)!
Ex:The teacher insisted that Paul go to the blackboard(le professeur insista pour que Paul aille au tableau).
I guessed it was not so easy.
The subjonctive don't appear in the conjugating table of the Gymglish's reference website.From this I have deduced that it might be expressed by the indicative or conditionnel tense, though it has been mentionned in a Gymglish course of a "preterit modal" with "he were","she were".
I thinck to know, Fugendichter that you have some German origins,and translation from French to German is close to English.Your advice must be appropriate.
Then again, "avant que" is a conjonction but its component "avant" is a preposition.In other respects,AhQ, about the rule of identity of tense,I come across This sentence:"I'll call him after I've take a shower"Je l'appellerai quand j'aurai pris ma douche".Is it grammaticaly incorrect?
Thanks ever so!
There is still works to me.
Thanks to both of you, My confusion comes from a website where I read "le subjonctif anglais se confond pratiquement avec l'indicatif, seule la suppression du "s" à la 3ème pers. du singulier diffère". Ex:God save the Queen(King)! Ex:The teacher insisted that Paul go to the blackboard(le professeur insista pour que Paul aille au tableau). I guessed it was not so easy. The subjonctive don't appear in the conjugating table of the Gymglish's reference website.From this I have deduced that it might be expressed by the indicative or conditionnel tense, though it has been mentionned in a Gymglish course of a "preterit modal" with "he were","she were". I thinck to know, Fugendichter that you have some German origins,and translation from French to German is close to English.Your advice must be appropriate. Then again, "avant que" is a conjonction but its component "avant" is a preposition.In other respects,AhQ, about the rule of identity of tense,I come across This sentence:"I'll call him after I've take a shower"Je l'appellerai quand j'aurai pris ma douche".Is it grammaticaly incorrect? Thanks ever so! There is still works to me.
Gymglish Support
User since 2010
Posts: 115
30 Aug. 2012

Hi Green Lemon,

Rules in English for the subjunctive are completely different to French rules. There are almost no similarities between the two, and in English we rarely use the subjunctive in comparison to French.

As a general rule, you should not base your use of the English subjunctive on anything to do with French!

In English, the subjunctive past tense is generally reserved for 'IF' clauses (as well as other hypothetical constructions):
If I WERE a richman, I would buy a big house (instead of 'If I WAS') or I wish she WEREN'T so far away.

The subjunctive present is generally reserved for statements of insistence, demand or necessity:
I demand that he RESIGN immediately, I am requiring that she WEAR a dress, I asked that they ARRIVE on time.

Here we use the subjunctive form of the verb regardless of the tense of of the initial verb. Note that the subjunctive present form is identical to the infinitive form of the verb (without 'to'). Also, the subjunctive present is more commonly used in American English than in British English, in which the term 'should' is generally used: I demanded that he SHOULD resign.

Have a nice day!

Sam
Hi Green Lemon, Rules in English for the subjunctive are completely different to French rules. There are almost no similarities between the two, and in English we rarely use the subjunctive in comparison to French. As a general rule, you should not base your use of the English subjunctive on anything to do with French! In English, the subjunctive past tense is generally reserved for 'IF' clauses (as well as other hypothetical constructions): If I WERE a richman, I would buy a big house (instead of 'If I WAS') or I wish she WEREN'T so far away. The subjunctive present is generally reserved for statements of insistence, demand or necessity: I demand that he RESIGN immediately, I am requiring that she WEAR a dress, I asked that they ARRIVE on time. Here we use the subjunctive form of the verb regardless of the tense of of the initial verb. Note that the subjunctive present form is identical to the infinitive form of the verb (without 'to'). Also, the subjunctive present is more commonly used in American English than in British English, in which the term 'should' is generally used: I demanded that he SHOULD resign. Have a nice day! Sam
green lemon
User since 2011
Posts: 84
31 Aug. 2012

Hi Sammy,

Thanks you very much for this restatement!
I am going to feel more secured in this field from now on.
Best regards!
Hi Sammy, Thanks you very much for this restatement! I am going to feel more secured in this field from now on. Best regards!
Fugendichter
User since 2008
Posts: 588
3 Sept. 2012

Thank you both for that very interesting lesson, I'm very glad to participate by chance.
Thank you both for that very interesting lesson, I'm very glad to participate by chance.
Dwight
User since 2012
Posts: 32
5 Sept. 2012

This post was deleted by the author 7 years, 4 months ago.

God SHAVE the Queen! (Subjunctive present) Since in vain appeals to a non-existing deity is cockamamie in the first place, we can also insist that this deity not only save the Queen, but also shave her - which is futile again. Even if this may be considered disrespectul both to God and the Queen, it might be punished with a double death sentence - but it is still a good application of the subjunctive present. And if there WERE a God, he would be inclined to strike me down. (subjunctive past)
Pimpanella
User since 2012
Posts: 288
2 Oct. 2012

Thank to all of you for what I learnt here. And to Calcard, for his irreverent motto and new title for the British anthem ;) With this I'll remember the use of the subjonctive present. Even in french, I'm confused when talking about the tenses, I'm not sure of what is called subjonctive or conditional, so it makes it easier with examples.
Thank to all of you for what I learnt here. And to Calcard, for his irreverent motto and new title for the British anthem ;) With this I'll remember the use of the subjonctive present. Even in french, I'm confused when talking about the tenses, I'm not sure of what is called subjonctive or conditional, so it makes it easier with examples.
grammar lover
User since 2013
Posts: 3
2 Sept. 2013

Thanks to Sammy B for his very clear explanations (clearer than those of GymGlish corrections). I had been learning English at school during 9 years and had never heard about the subjonctive present tense, only about the past (were).
Thanks to Sammy B for his very clear explanations (clearer than those of GymGlish corrections). I had been learning English at school during 9 years and had never heard about the subjonctive present tense, only about the past (were).

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